27 replies to this topic

[Wharfedale]

Spire!!!!!

Dont just think about saving the stones, now it's time to save the Church Spire too!!

http://www.burleypar...latest&Itemid=2

[weirdmusic]

Wharfedale, on 17 August 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

Spire!!!!!

Why save it? What's the point of it?

[Wharfedale]

Like the stones, this seems like something that we need to save and preserve regardless of ones beliefs.

[Flas# #arry]

Wharfedale, on 17 August 2010 - 07:32 PM, said:

Like the stones, this seems like something that we need to save and preserve regardless of ones beliefs.

I'd get three quotes if I were them, and check their insurance, although this might be down to an act of god?

[Sebastian-Smythe]

Flas# #arry, on 17 August 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

I'd get three quotes if I were them, and check their insurance, although this might be down to an act of god?

Thoughts of Piza come to mind. Is it leaning by chance?
I often wonder why our religious buildings are left to
fall apart when, act of whatever god or otherwise, they
are always keen to take your brass. Perhaps if the Church
Commissioners sold a few hundred hectares of agricultural land
in Norfolk they could stop your church from crumbling.

I have heard that preying often brings that which is needed.

[weirdmusic]

Sebastian-Smythe, on 18 August 2010 - 12:55 PM, said:

.......................I often wonder why our religious buildings are left to fall apart when, act of whatever god or otherwise, they are always keen to take your brass. ...........................

Why did St Mary's blow all their money on the Parish Centre on Station Road? (See topic "The worst building in Burley?")

Why didn't they do what the Methodists have done & create a viable building out of the property they already own i.e. The Parish Church & its spire.

[Sebastian-Smythe]

weirdmusic, on 18 August 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

Why did St Mary's blow all their money on the Parish Centre on Station Road? (See topic "The worst building in Burley?")

Why didn't they do what the Methodists have done & create a viable building out of the property they already own i.e. The Parish Church & its spire.

Why indeed?

All show and no motion one might say.
They could always go back to what churches
were often used for in the middle ages -
halls for farmers to sell their goods. A
bit of latteral thinking is what is needed.

[Lucerosie]

Sebastian-Smythe, on 19 August 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

Why indeed?

All show and no motion one might say.
They could always go back to what churches
were often used for in the middle ages -
halls for farmers to sell their goods. A
bit of latteral thinking is what is needed.

Perhaps the shop we dare not menion could move in there?

[weirdmusic]

Lucerosie, on 20 August 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

Perhaps the shop we dare not mention could move in there?

Perhaps they are - they're looking for new premises. The old Otley Mills carpet shop, on Main Street is one candidate. But the Parish Church has far more potential - nice high ceilings, good ventilation - they wouldn't have any problems with refrigerators & chill cabinets, a very obvious location for a neon sign....................

[Lucerosie]

weirdmusic, on 20 August 2010 - 05:29 PM, said:

Perhaps they are - they're looking for new premises. The old Otley Mills carpet shop, on Main Street is one candidate. But the Parish Church has far more potential - nice high ceilings, good ventilation - they wouldn't have any problems with refrigerators & chill cabinets, a very obvious location for a neon sign....................

And no one upstairs to complain about the noise from the fridges.

Oh... perhaps there is...

[Steve B]

Lucerosie, on 20 August 2010 - 05:45 PM, said:

Oh... perhaps there is...

Heh heh heh! Nice one!

[spyglass]

catbazza, on 21 August 2010 - 01:19 PM, said:

It is up to the individual as what they think or believe in.

I quite agree with you and I do not suppose I will convince the deluded any more than they are likely to convince me but for the life of me I cannot understand why people believe in something so illogical when there is not a shred of concrete evidence to back it up. I think it is a terrible shame so much time energy and money are wasted.

[catbazza]

spyglass, on 21 August 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

I quite agree with you and I do not suppose I will convince the deluded any more than they are likely to convince me but for the life of me I cannot understand why people believe in something so illogical when there is not a shred of concrete evidence to back it up. I think it is a terrible shame so much time energy and money are wasted.

Oh!I once again agree, but i'm convinced that out there someone would argue with you & produce evidence to counteract what you say.

If so come on the forum & give us your views.

[Matt]

Hi all,

I've taken some executive action on this topic and unapproved two posts in this thread, as, whilst intended as well menaing debate, they were causing some personal discomfort to a number of individuals and, having reviewed the posts, I felt that the best thing to do was to suspend them to allow their suitability to be discussed between the moderators.

I have no problem with the topic under discussion - it is an open form for all opinions - but I have also to be sensitive to the views of all - and it's not often too clear where that line is.

I've been out helping at various summer fesitival events today, as I am tomorrow, but will be happy to discuss with the post author and moderators whether the post should be re-instated or whether a modified version could be that would make the same points without causing unintended upset!

Thanks

Matt

[spyglass]

I see one of my post is one of the ones removed.

I would like to say that I did not intend offence to anyone and fully support the right of people to believe what they want. However I hope my post intended to promote debate is not going to remain deleted. It aired personal views about religion which will be stongly agreed with by some and equally strongly disagreed with by others. Either way, it might prompt debate which is what I thought this forum was all about. I was simply trying to point out what I see as the illogicality of religion and hoping that others might try to point out the logicality - i.e. debate.

I do not know why the post should have caused individuals to feel discomforted unless they are unable to present arguments to defend their views and simply expect everyone to accede to their beliefs blindly.

For views to be censored (on a small scale) would liken the moderators of this forum to the government of Iran or China! i.e only the party line is acceptable!

[weirdmusic]

Matt, on 21 August 2010 - 08:53 PM, said:

Hi all,

I've taken some executive action on this topic and unapproved two posts in this thread, as, whilst intended as well menaing debate, they were causing some personal discomfort to a number of individuals and, having reviewed the posts, I felt that the best thing to do was to suspend them to allow their suitability to be discussed between the moderators.

I have no problem with the topic under discussion - it is an open form for all opinions - but I have also to be sensitive to the views of all - and it's not often too clear where that line is.

.......................

Matt
I can understand & agree with site admin pulling posts because their spam adverts for mobile phones. But not an individual, who takes it upon themselves to pull posts, just because they know someone whose been upset by the content of something that's been written.

You want people to express their opinions, but you don't want opinions you don't agree with. I read at least one of the posts that's been pulled, I didn't necessarily agree with what was written, but I'm shocked that you took it upon yourself to pull it. Passing the buck to the moderators, in no way justifies what you've done.

The people upset by the content, have the right to reply, why didn't they?

The posts should be reinstated forthwith.

Then we can all debate the issues raised.

[marygill]

weirdmusic, on 22 August 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

Matt
I can understand & agree with site admin pulling posts because their spam adverts for mobile phones. But not an individual, who takes it upon themselves to pull posts, just because they know someone whose been upset by the content of something that's been written.

You want people to express their opinions, but you don't want opinions you don't agree with. I read at least one of the posts that's been pulled, I didn't necessarily agree with what was written, but I'm shocked that you took it upon yourself to pull it. Passing the buck to the moderators, in no way justifies what you've done.

The people upset by the content, have the right to reply, why didn't they?

The posts should be reinstated forthwith.

Then we can all debate the issues raised.

Can I just say that having missed the posts in question perhaps I am jumping to the wrong conclusion here, but I assume it was about a belief in God.
I am sure someone will be on post haste if I'm wrong.
However for what it's worth & this is purely a personal viewpoint I see it like this: Sometimes people are in need of comfort and some are lucky and have friends and or family while others feel a need to believe that someone is looking out for them and on their side.
OK we may think they are foolish and that there is no evidence to support their belief, we can show them through debate how they are wrong and illogical.
Where does that leave us as human beings?, we have destroyed someones beliefs to prove a point and that doesn't make me feel proud.
Just leave it alone, and no I don't have strong beliefs either way, my conscience is what I class as God and I'm not a churchgoer except for weddings and funerals but I hope I am a decent tolerant human being.

[spyglass]

marygill, on 23 August 2010 - 10:22 AM, said:

Can I just say that having missed the posts in question perhaps I am jumping to the wrong conclusion here, but I assume it was about a belief in God.
I am sure someone will be on post haste if I'm wrong.
However for what it's worth & this is purely a personal viewpoint I see it like this: Sometimes people are in need of comfort and some are lucky and have friends and or family while others feel a need to believe that someone is looking out for them and on their side.
OK we may think they are foolish and that there is no evidence to support their belief, we can show them through debate how they are wrong and illogical.
Where does that leave us as human beings?, we have destroyed someones beliefs to prove a point and that doesn't make me feel proud.
Just leave it alone, and no I don't have strong beliefs either way, my conscience is what I class as God and I'm not a churchgoer except for weddings and funerals but I hope I am a decent tolerant human being.

My post was probably the main one pulled and yes it was about belief in God.

I am sure you are a decent tolerant human being as are most people whether they believe or not (myself included). I do not think people are foolish for believing. There are many people far more intelligent than me who believe. I dont mind what people believe but surely there should be sensible reason for believing not just a blind faith. What I was trying to do was to give reasons for giving the matter some serious thought. It is quite an important issue after all which affects the whole world and often negatively.

I obviously cant go into my arguments again or this post will be pulled as well. Obviously some (and those with the power of veto here) cannot stomach dissent on this particular subject. 2 or 3 hundred years ago they would no doubt have burnt me at the stake.

Your argument that your concience is what you class as God is absolutely the right one and the world would be a better place if everyone used that magnetic pole to direct their moral compass. However a conscience is not an independently thinking force but something which arises from experience/upbringing/education etc.

[marygill]

spyglass, on 23 August 2010 - 12:22 PM, said:

I dont mind what people believe but surely there should be sensible reason for believing not just a blind faith.

I really can't see anything wrong with "blind faith" and if what you believe makes you feel better and gives comfort who are we to say that is wrong?
Sometimes after say a bereavement, feeling that there is for instance an afterlife can help enormously yet there is no reason to believe that this is sensible.
Some people believe homeopathy works yet certain scientists have proved this to be unlikely, yet the point is that if it makes us feel better then we choose to believe it.
I honestly am not looking for an argument, but I fail to see why it matters so much to you what someone else believes in.

[Matt]

Let me be clear here:

1) the post hasn't been removed. It's been suspended pending a discussion with moderators - the forum automatically approves all posts but this is subject to manual review.

2) Spyglass' post is the one in question. I quite accept that it was posted with good intentions and I'm not saying spyglass has done anything wrong.

3) Belief in god is a perfectly valid subject for debate on this forum or elsewhere and one that, as a local councillor, I am happy to leave to the church and others to pursue - faith is a private matter and I have no view on anyone else's faith or lack thereof. I did NOT suspend the post becuase it discussed belief in God. if you want to post on the forum whether you believe in God, it's fine with me. I suspended it because comments about the local church could have been misinterpreted.

3) The reason I suspended it was because the links made in the post were open to mininterpretation in a way that I could see would cause unintended offence to others as the wrong conclusions could easily be drawn. As I said, it's just pending a discussion with moderators and the poster which I haven't had time for yet.

4)If you want to liken the forum to despotic regimes you're free to do so, though I don't agree - I spend a huge amount of time (and money, for that matter) trying to develop and run for forum in the interest of it's members. I try to make it as democratic as I can but at the end of the day the aim fo this form is to contriibute to bringing a community together. If I'm not confortable about the way a topic is going, I have not just the right but also the responsibility to act. At the end of the day, I am held accountable for this forum every days and take a lot of criticism for it. I cannot pass it on to an existing community group as none has the capacity for it. I'd be happy to pass it on to a community group that could run it independently, but none exists, so for the time being you're stuck with me. That means, however, that as I have to take responsibility for the forum, members will ultimately have to abide by my decisions. In this case however, no decision has actually been made - I just consider that a decision is needed and intent to make it along with volunteer moderators.

Matt