34 replies to this topic

[Matt]

weirdmusic, on 08 December 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

Do you know why Bradford Council charge a flat rate for the hire of their public halls?

There is a rate per hour that depended on what you want to hire, so it depends what you mean by 'flat rate'. It's the same rate whenever you want it, but for example the Queens hall Annexe is much cheaper than the whole of the Hall, it depdneds what you want to hire.  

Quote

Why is it they don't show any flexibility in what they charge - i.e. give discounts for block booking or any incentives to get people to hire them?

They do have two rates - one for commercial / private events and one for 'community' events. So when I hired the hall for my son's christening, I paid the commercial/private rate. Many local organisations use the Hall and they pay the lower community rate.
There is to my knowledge one exception. The Couuncil has a policy of supporting Parish Councils, and Burley Parish Council does not pay for the use of the John Squire Room (though they do cover costs of kitting it out). Re. discounts, see answer below.

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Who sets the policy on this?

The policy (which is set acorss all ocmmunity buildings the Council runs) is intended to be as fair as possible - which means in practice that the same rate is charged to all organisations, with businesses and private individuals paying a premium. It's designed to cover the costs of opening, staffing and closing the building when it's in use as well as covering other direct operating costs (heat, light, etc.) if possible. Unfortunately, £50 (say) is peanuts to some organisations and a fortune to others. That is a disincentive to use it, and a community run hall might be able to be more flexible in it's pricing strategy. However, it's costs would probably not be much lower. Even if a community run hall used volunteers or more local staff to reduce costs, or set the bar lower in terms of constant staffing etc, there are still the running costs and capital costs. The Council just about managed the critical running costs but struggles to fund all the maintenance that's really needed, and capital funds are totally inadequate - many decades of under-investment is hard to undo, even with £500k spet on it a few years ago. The main factor in the cost though is staff time. The staff however are very good and very committed - people like Darren (who's at the Queens hall most of the time when I am) go out of their way to help. So, yes, there is a cost - but it goes to provide a service that's well appreciated.

I was involved in establishing the pricing after the refurbishment, and I'd have been hard pressed to find a farier formula that could be applied. As I say, if it was a local policy it might be easier to make it more flexible.

mtricks, on 09 December 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

Peel place would be an ideal place for a sports hall!!!??? the road is not suitable for the buildings that are there now...

As a fellow peel placer - Dead right mtricks

[weirdmusic]

Interesting article in the Yorkshire Post on Friday 10th Dec about Hawes in Upper Wensleydale:

http://www.yorkshire...9Big.6656456.jp

The following is an extract:
 
"Upper Wensleydale Community Partnership Ltd
Managed and staffed entirely by local people, the project has grown rapidly, moving into smart new premises four years ago. Residents can call in to pay their council tax, report a crime, enquire about rubbish collections, use a computer, purchase bus passes or parking permits, and visit a public library – all under a single roof.

Funding comes via contracts signed with the councils and police to provide such services on their behalf, covering the rent on the building, utilities bills and the three staff salaries.

By pooling overhead costs in this way, the office can provide services which would be unaffordable for any of the authorities to deliver individually".

[appropriatebridge]

I hope Matt Palmer is right in his recent assurances that Burley Library will not close. I say this because I have information from a Council official that some public halls and libraries are definitely going to close as a result of the Government cuts in funding to local authorities. I have no specific information on which ones but lets look at in from a strategic viewpoint.

There is a large library in Ilkley. It is opposite the bus/train station. The library is mostly used by pensioners and children who can travel on the bus/train to Ilkley for nothing (or close to nothing). Burley is well served by public transport having the main road buses, the hopper and frequent trains. Allegedly, the CO-OP are looking for new premises and the Council might therefore have an easy sale/lease of the library building. Furthermore, there is another library in Menston with ample car parking for those who wish to could go there and it is an integral part of the community centre where a creche has just been built at a cost of about half a million pounds so that location is probably secure. If I was a strategic planner, Burley library would close. Furthermore, once the neighbours to the library find out about the CO-Op plans (assuming the library building forms part of them)they will object. Would you want to live next door to a shop with frequent delivery lorries, litter and kids hanging about and trying to get illegal booze - handy for the park! I hope Matt is correct but all I would say is don't be complacent and assume the library is safe yet.

Now to the Queens Hall. As stated above, there is a community centre in Menston which is probably secure. Most of it is a relatively new building with minimal maintenance needs. Ilkley has its municipal buildings but you can imagine the outcry if these were threatened and the Kings Hall is the only sizeable staged venue around. So these buildings are probably secure. If the Queens Hall is disposed of, there might also be a question about the public parking at the rear if this "belongs" to the Hall.

Burley on the other hand has the poor old Queens Hall. Inefficient layout, under used and probably requiring lots of ongoing and long term maintenence. If you were a planner, what would you close? I think the Queens Hall is probably doomed. I believe there was talk about the Parish Council taking it over but this seems to have gone quiet.

[Grumpy]

appropriatebridge, on 28 January 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

If you were a planner, what would you close?

Well since you ask I would shut the present library building and sell it off for housing (which should be of a design which would blend in with the existing housing) Bank the disposal proceeds and save the building running costs.

Shift the library into an area of the Queen's Hall, preferably with some new/additional books. Access to toilet facilities, parking.

Net result lower running costs, money in bank and better service.

Oh and tell the Coop that if they want more space they should either relocate next to the garage or make the adjacent shop occupiers an offer they cant refuse. In the meantime either put the frontage back to Leesons standard or be shut down.

If the Local Authority are claiming to be short of money they should stop wasting it on garbage before cutting traditional services. As an example of garbage I offer the Shipley Area Neighbourhood News which has appeared through our letterbox this week. Eight pages printed in colour on decent paper. How much has this cost to produce?
And how much use is it? I would suggest none-unless you needed to know that Baildon Street reps shared new ideas.In fact it's doubly annoying as it shows what else they're wasting our rates on.

[marygill]

Grumpy, on 28 January 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

If the Local Authority are claiming to be short of money they should stop wasting it on garbage before cutting traditional services. As an example of garbage I offer the Shipley Area Neighbourhood News which has appeared through our letterbox this week. Eight pages printed in colour on decent paper. How much has this cost to produce?
And how much use is it? I would suggest none-unless you needed to know that Baildon Street reps shared new ideas.In fact it's doubly annoying as it shows what else they're wasting our rates on.

See my reply to should Burley leave BMC, and all will become clear as to exactly where our council tax is going.

[Sebastian-Smythe]

There is a large library in Ilkley. It is opposite the bus/train station. The library is mostly used by pensioners and children who can travel on the bus/train to Ilkley for nothing (or close to nothing). Burley is well served by public transport having the main road buses, the hopper and frequent trains.

Your quote is misleading.
What about the none pensioners who regularly use the computers.

[H2drogen]

Come on!
Libraries are a political tool.
They could probably close the libraries in Bradford and save the equivalent of a few pennies as I doubt the Bradford library budget represents a big total. It would not save the fortune that all of the councils in the ocuntry are struggling to recover. Councils have always had to cut costs. Libraries are the big flag to get the socialists out in protest when we want them. In the meantime, other bits will be trimmed and scaled down and tightened. With every tightening there are mose staff needed. With every outsourcing there is the contract negotiating costs. Selective accountancy will help the politicians hold up a book at the end of March to say "look our policies have worked" but we still need to make the people feel grateful for what they have.
It wouldn't be Britain if we were really made to feel in control and responsible for our own destinies. I blame the Eurocrats (sarc.).

The coop is fine if undecided about what sort of shop to be
The library is good and enthusiastic and sociable without the need of booze or coffee and toilets and TVs and a HiFi but small (but this is a small town)

I second the garage site - might spread the village about a bit. Might put the butchers and fruit and veg out of business though.

[Sebastian-Smythe]

H2drogen, on 10 February 2011 - 12:44 AM, said:

Come on!
Libraries are a political tool.
They could probably close the libraries in Bradford and save the equivalent of a few pennies as I doubt the Bradford library budget represents a big total. It would not save the fortune that all of the councils in the ocuntry are struggling to recover. Councils have always had to cut costs. Libraries are the big flag to get the socialists out in protest when we want them. In the meantime, other bits will be trimmed and scaled down and tightened. With every tightening there are mose staff needed. With every outsourcing there is the contract negotiating costs. Selective accountancy will help the politicians hold up a book at the end of March to say "look our policies have worked" but we still need to make the people feel grateful for what they have.
It wouldn't be Britain if we were really made to feel in control and responsible for our own destinies. I blame the Eurocrats (sarc.).

The coop is fine if undecided about what sort of shop to be
The library is good and enthusiastic and sociable without the need of booze or coffee and toilets and TVs and a HiFi but small (but this is a small town)

I second the garage site - might spread the village about a bit. Might put the butchers and fruit and veg out of business though.

CLOSE THE LIBRARIES IN BRADFORD!

What about the libraries where folk need them in the outlying districts.
Not everyone has the means to travel to bradford, nor wants to.
Likewise not everyone has InterNet connection. Nor knows how to use it.

Libraries are for learning. Not for coffeehouses, creches and all the
other so-called none library attitudes forced upon us........

[H2drogen]

Sebastian-Smythe, on 10 February 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

CLOSE THE LIBRARIES IN BRADFORD!

What about the libraries where folk need them in the outlying districts.
Not everyone has the means to travel to bradford, nor wants to.
Likewise not everyone has InterNet connection. Nor knows how to use it.

Libraries are for learning. Not for coffeehouses, creches and all the
other so-called none library attitudes forced upon us........

Woah there Sebastian. I am a lover of the library. Do you know they actually had a Bobby Brewster book in there?

We are in Bradford so we don't need to travel there. We can get books sent from any of the Bradford libraries for free and you can find them using the terminals in the library in Burley (don't remind the councillors of that one). We shouldn't change the library or move it or revamp it or tart it up with coffee bars unless the people who run it (who understand the customer base better than anyone) believe that it will improve the facility.

The point is that the first thing any council does when spending is due to be cut is to mention libraries. It gets a debate going that distracts from the real funding issues, gets the righties questioning why we should fund reading for the unwashed when if we burned the books we could keep the poor people warm, gets the lefties shouting about the route to betterment that is forbidden by their communist ideals. Any change for the good gets slowed down and the council has a ready made list of reasons why they didn't manage to save the money they didn't want to save anyway.

[weirdmusic]

The slanging matches on the other threads, has completely lost me.
The following are my thoughts, questions & suggestions about the issue - where we're upto in the ongoing saga in relation to Burley Library, Bradford Council & our elected council representatives. (I'll post about the other party in a more appropriate thread).
----------------------------------------------------
Burley Library is a publicly owned asset, paid for out of council taxpayers money. Its designation is as a "Leisure" facility.
The people of Burley have been assured (for months) that the Library is not under any kind of threat to its existence.

A library survives on footfall - whether someone goes in for couple of minutes or stays 3 hours - they are only counted as 1 visit.
The higher the footfall the greater its security.
-----------------------------------------------------
Why is Burley Library so popular with all age groups?

Simple - its on the ground floor with ease of access via ramps, a place to park the buggies, good opening times, good facilities & services, very helpful staff, central location within the village etc.
The high footfall reflects its popularity - hence no threat to its future.

Matt, on 25 November 2010 - 07:07 PM, said:

…. It IS correct that the council is looking at an option proposed by a third party that could result in significant investment in and improvement of the library, as well as making it more sustainable in the long term. Councillors are actively engaged in this discussion ………

Anything that impedes access, will lower the footfall i.e. the more difficult the access the less likely people will use it.

So how does the "current" proposal of moving the Library from the ground floor with all the great benefits of that position, to the second (up 3 or more flights of stairs) "improve the library" & "make it more sustainable"?

If the Library is not under any threat, why should it move? Surely its in a position of strength.
----------------------------------------------
What of the building itself?

It was built as a single storey structure. Is the building unsafe?
Is there some problem with the building that Bradford Council & its councillors have not told us about?
Does Bradford Council consider the building a burden, they no longer want?

Why do Bradford Council want to get rid of the building?

They have promised that it won't be sold, but doesn't putting it into some quasi public/private arrangement with a 99 year lease amount to the same thing?

Who was the first to suggest this arrangement?
Did it come from our elected council representatives? Or Bradford Council executives?
Is it not just a very convenient ploy to avoid accusations of betrayal, of broken promises?
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Has Bradford Council had the site independently valued?

If the site was put up for sale on the open market, with a change of designation from "Leisure" to "Retail" (or even "Residential"), with the only caveat being the buyer retained the library - what would be its value?
To provide an estimate of the Library site's value - what would be the cost to a retail company of buying a site in Burley, getting planning permission for a new store, & building it?
---------------------------------------------
Why has one retail company been given preferential treatment with regard to the development of the site?

The whole process should be opened up to all comers, whether that be retail companies or residential ones. Now is the time to advertise for alternative proposals & offers.
That way everyone can see that Bradford Council is getting the best return for the asset.
--------------------------------------------
If there was no threat to Burley Library, why the need for secret discussions about its future?

Clearly from the time of the first rumours (November 2010) to now - 10 months later, there have been secret discussions.
So secret that the people who are going to be most affected - library users & staff - have had no say in the matter.

Why didn't they (the 3rd party, the retail company, Bradford Council & particularly our elected representatives) consult us from the word go? Why the secrecy? All parties to the proposal leak like a sieve in any case, all the secrecy has done, is put people's backs up. Hence the vitriol on the various threads & now within Burley itself - a boycott of the retail company's present premises is a real possibility, it may well be happening ..... such is the strength of feeling.

What costs would Bradford Council incur if they rejected the proposal?
--------------------------------------------
Has a deal for Burley Library already taken place?

It seems that the point has now been reached where, in the sure & certain knowledge that local councillors won't object, nor Bradford Council itself, the retail company will get the go ahead for its proposal.

Now all parties to the proposal consider this to be the right time to "consult" the people.

For a proper consultation, senior executives of the retail company (not local staff as they don't make the decisions), Bradford Council executives & our council representatives, should set up a table in Burley Library & ask for input.

If the various parties wish to show their true commitment to Burley Library, then I suggest they hold the consultation meeting on Tuesday 6th September 2011 in Burley Library.
(Both ideas would of course add to the footfall through the Library - a win, win situation for everybody).
---------------------------------------------
We have been assured that there was no threat to Burley Library.

The "current" proposal as it stands will almost certainly result in the loss of footfall through the Library & hasten its demise.

Quote

Matt post: "New Co-Op Ghetto" Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:50 PM
……… no-one has suggested there is a threat to the service and in any case local councillors would lie down in front of the bulldozers before letting the library come under threat.

As Burley Library IS threatened by the "current" proposal, I would expect to see our local council representatives camped inside Burley Library from now on.
---------------------------------------------
There are other solutions, that would mean Burley Library stays exactly where it is - on the ground floor.

1). A retail company takes the second floor - I'm quite sure they'd have no problem putting in an escalator or 2.
2). Have residential apartments above the library. I can visualise the advert in the local estate agents - Great views over the Cricket Ground & Grange Park. Excellent central location, with good access to all amenities, nice & quiet neighbours below…………

[catbazza]

Has anybody missed what the Co-op said in their outline ie, "we have no intention of running the library" so the running of the library will still be in hands of Bradford.

Or should that read "ruinning".

[ex-user]

Weird Music is singing a harmonious song
in tune with my own post
in another thread.

Which I posted before reading this one

The questions are there
lets have some answers.

[Steve B]

I like the way
you always post
like a poem.

That is all.
Back to topic....

[ex-user]

Thanks SteveB
it's the new way to get information across
on the net
It's called ®evolution
If more documents were written
this way
they would be easier
for the layman
to absorb
and understand.

I note
with some satisfaction
Sebastion seems to be also
in on the
®evolution.

As you say
back to the topic in hand

[Sebastian-Smythe]

greenhowleadman, on 19 August 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

Thanks SteveB
it's the new way to get information across
on the net
It's called ®evolution
If more documents were written
this way
they would be easier
for the layman
to absorb
and understand.

I note
with some satisfaction
Sebastion seems to be also
in on the
®evolution.

As you say
back to the topic in hand

One might say on a theme of Charles Darwin though in this case perhaps by un-natural selection.
I think catbazza has come close to it irrespective of what others might say. Footfall keeps
libraries open in these days of little brass. Why convert a level 'playing field' to a first
floor viewing platform not everyone will feel agile enough to reach. So footfall drops and
before long we might see an article in the paper pointing to something we don't want to read....